We Play Full Out with Bart and Sunny

When Growth Feels Like Death

• Bart and Sunny Miller • Season 1 • Episode 76

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What if the biggest transformation of your life doesn’t feel like a breakthrough, but more like a breakdown?

In this episode, we explore the uncomfortable truth that real growth often requires the death of old identities, outdated beliefs, and inherited scripts. Whether it’s letting go of who your family told you to be, confronting the stories that shape your relationships, or rewriting your perception of truth, the path forward is rarely clean, but it’s always clarifying.

We’ll unpack the jaw-dropping premise behind Derren Brown’s Sacrifice, where a man with strong personal convictions is unknowingly conditioned to make the ultimate decision: Would he take a bullet for a stranger? That question cracked open a deeper one for us: how often are we living by beliefs that were never really ours to begin with?

We also share real-life stories of families torn apart - and others healed - by what they believed was “right.” And we explore one simple but life-altering question that can reframe any moment of tension, control, or conflict: What is the outcome I truly want?

If you’ve ever felt like your world was shaking just before something new emerged… you’re not broken. You’re on the edge of becoming. Tune in to walk through the fire—and rise from it.

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to. We Play Full Out with Bart and Sunny Miller. Take it away, Sunny.

Speaker 2:

I will do that. Bart. Today I have a deep question for you. What if the biggest lie you have ever been told is you are who you are.

Speaker 1:

That would be a very big question.

Speaker 2:

Let's be clear what would you think about that? If I just said that to you out of the blue, like I just did?

Speaker 1:

I don't know. I'd really have to ponder on that, because you know like it's hard to imagine that statement being true like your views about life, politics, culture, religion, like all the things.

Speaker 2:

Were they something that were true to you, that like came from your soul, or were they something that was just handed down to you and you accept it as true?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and this is something you and I have spent a lot, a lot of time on, and I'm glad we're digging into it because this is gonna be a great podcast, I can tell by the start.

Speaker 2:

It's gonna be, because I think, if you don't stop and think about it, and even if you do, sometimes life presents a situation to you that kind of forces you to confront those beliefs head on. And then what do you do, especially if you're in a relationship with a significant other, or a child or a parent, even like, what do you do when, all of a sudden, you're confronted with your belief system? Yeah Well, what do you do when, all of a sudden you're confronted with your belief system.

Speaker 1:

Yeah Well, where do you go? You know, we found that when we were challenging lots of our belief systems, I mean I, I don't. I mean honestly, I know that they're out there, but I don't know a lot of people that have gone through every belief you possibly can and try to challenge it, like you and I have. I mean, we have challenged everything from traditional marriage to traditional religion to all sorts of things, and we've really openly talked about that in length. When I say length, I mean length.

Speaker 2:

Like probably way too much.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I think it's awesome because it's really opened us up in so many categories of life. But I'm telling you, I don't know what I would have done if I'd have been on that journey by myself. And you know, some people say it's an awakening. You know, whatever you want to call it, but for me I would have. I don't know what I would have done if you wouldn't have been along for that journey and it would have been very, very, very, very difficult. And even some of the conversations we have on certain beliefs can be challenging, when both of us even know it's true but are like, oh my gosh, what do we want to do here? How do we handle this? Or all these kinds of things. So I'm really excited about this podcast.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, and I think one visible representation of a belief challenge is right here on your arm.

Speaker 1:

Yes, most definitely so. This tattoo. When I first originally decided to get a tattoo, it's something I've been told since I was a little kid that I should never do. And, as a matter of fact, I stood up to a lot of people that had tattoos crazy me and even said man, you know what? I don't know if that was the wisest decision you ever made, because you know this and that and the other, because I had this really anchored belief structure around it.

Speaker 1:

And so when I started to question that belief structure I remember having this conversation with you I was like I'm going to get a tattoo because I need to show those people that I was wrong, right or wrong. But I wanted to just say you know, look, I'm sorry and I'm going to actually do something. And so when I did it, I actually did this portion right here of the tattoo. And when I went to my tattoo artist, he was like dude, that's a pretty good size tattoo. Like most people start off with a really you know kind of a smaller tattoo. Are you sure you want to do this? And I said absolutely. And so I actually shot a video with you before talking about this exact moment, cause I'm like I want to be documenting this because it's it's a big deal to me and I was nervous, right, and so I'll never forget that. And then, as I went forward with it, it was kind of interesting that I felt like I'd broke the mold. I really felt like I'd broke the belief right, and I was like I'm cool.

Speaker 1:

Then, all of a sudden, I'd be around certain friends and I would wear long sleeves and I would cover the tattoo, because if you see, right here, you made it to where a watch will won't, you know, wouldn't cover that part, cause it's like I don't need to, you know, have a watch that's covering that, cause I wear a watch a lot back then. And so eventually I had this talk with you and I'm like, nope, I'm going to do one on my hand, that way I can never cover it up and I'm over this deal. And I was like holy cow. And so that's why I ended up doing this eye tattoo is because there's no way for me to hide. That is what is okay, and I believe it's okay. And no matter what somebody chooses to do, that's their choice. And so it's been a big, I don't know. Evolution Is that the right word?

Speaker 1:

It's been a big change, but I really wanted to make sure inside of me that I wasn't saying something, feeling something but not going all in Kind of acting differently.

Speaker 2:

Yes, so we recently watched a show on Netflix called Sacrifice and it's hosted and created by Darren Brown, who is a mentalist which, if you don't know, it's like the illusion of reading people's minds, so you kind of think they have this supernatural power because they can read your mind, right? Yeah, and the whole. Maybe you've heard of him. First of all, he had a show on Netflix called the Push, yeah, and it was a big deal.

Speaker 2:

It was a big deal. It got pulled from the platform um, for a lot of reasons, is my understanding, but this show is still on there. It's called sacrifice and the whole premise of the show is that darren wants to see if he can psychologically manipulate somebody into taking an actual bullet for a stranger. Yeah, like standing in front of a bullet and being willing to sacrifice your life for that person? Yeah, and the interesting thing was, is he needed to find somebody that had a strong bias against something? Right?

Speaker 1:

It was a very, very strong like was like super biased against it.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Do you want to tell a little bit about it or do you want to keep going?

Speaker 1:

I'm happy to. So what he did is so what Darren does, if you don't know it's a little bit of background is he? He basically does a poll, says he's looking for these certain people, so on and so forth, does a lot of testing to figure out who he's going to use, but he has no idea if it's going to work or not going to work and of course he's not going to come out and say I'm going to see if you're going to take a bullet for somebody.

Speaker 2:

It's like a whole different experiment that you think you're getting involved in.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you think you're in this whole experiment. So, long story short, he wanted to find somebody with a bias that was so strong that actually they would do the opposite if it was. And the bias that this person had was he was anti-Hispanics and he was anti-foreign Hispanics being in the country.

Speaker 2:

Illegal aliens.

Speaker 1:

Illegal aliens yeah, I mean illegal, if not aliens Illegal human beings being in there that were Hispanic. He was like I mean, you should see some of the video. He was like so angry about them and so many bias against them and all this kind of stuff, and so then the premise of the story was that Darren was going to get him to not only take a bullet for another human being, but to take a bullet for a foreigner that was Hispanic in his own country. Yes, okay, so that's the next dimension. So he's got to not only psychologically get him to take the bullet, but he's got to psychologically get him to take a bullet for somebody.

Speaker 2:

He absolutely despises bias against Yep.

Speaker 1:

So it was kind of crazy to watch this whole thing go down.

Speaker 2:

This kid thinks that he's getting a kind of like an implant. Yeah, that's how he starts a little device in the back of his neck that's going to be connected to an app and it's going to help him take decisive action in his life and have more courage. So that's what he thinks he signed up for.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and it's an interesting process and actually one of the tests he did to try to see if this person was actually going to go forward with things he failed. Yeah, I watch. Go watch the dang thing.

Speaker 2:

It's pretty cool to watch, but I think one really powerful thing was when um darren somehow manipulated his brain into thinking that he couldn't feel pain yes, that was also another very interesting and he put his hand out and he put a huge old needle right through his skin, like it was big, yeah, and he felt nothing. Yeah, yeah, he did some different.

Speaker 1:

His skin, like it, was big, and he felt nothing. Yeah yeah, he did some different work with him and it was crazy. And so when he would bonk himself on the head, he taught the anchor if you know anything about NLP or if you know anything about hypnosis he anchored a pain thing to him and then actually stuck a needle through his hand to prove that he wouldn't feel pain.

Speaker 2:

And so that was part of the process to make this all happen. And then I would say one of the other most powerful parts of the show was there was a technique that was created by a New York professor in psychology and it's meant to what's the word I want? Get empathy for somebody else. And so what he simply did was have this kid, phil, sit across from a stranger that was from another nationality and just stare into his eyes for four minutes. That's the whole exercise, and no kidding. By the end of four minutes, phil was in tears. He's crying. He's like I felt like I was looking into his soul. I felt like I just like I knew him, like knew him. He actually wanted to give him a hug by the end. Yeah, just fascinating. Yeah, it's fascinating. You're staring into some of these eyes for four minutes and all of a sudden, you're seeing a whole human that you didn't know was there.

Speaker 2:

Right, Right so anyway, we're not going to keep going on the show, whether it was a failure or a success for Darren, but it did get us talking more about beliefs, about identity, about anxiety and control Yep, right. So we also recently heard the story about a young man, and we don't know this person and we don't know the family, we just know the story, who? He's 20 years old and he just came out as gay.

Speaker 1:

Announced to his family. He was gay. Announced it to his family and it surprised them.

Speaker 2:

They didn't know and the reaction was pretty swift and devastating. And they came from a very, very conservative religion where this is not the type of thing that's allowed. And so they kind of came to him with this ultimatum of okay, you're living under our roof, so if you want to continue living under a roof, you're going to do some things like you're going to read your scriptures every day.

Speaker 2:

You're not allowed to be on social media, you can't go out with friends. You need to sit still and pray and ask for guidance. You need to get your testosterone checked and your blood levels checked and basically you can't be around your siblings. Yep. And this young man kind of looked at him and said F you, I'm out of here and he left and he will have no further conversations with them, has asked them not to text him, has nothing to do with them anymore. And they're bewildered.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

They can't figure out what they did wrong there.

Speaker 1:

It's mind blowing in so many ways to me. Yeah, so much about the belief mechanisms that this couple have and what they think about what's going on, because it's a lot of the same things that our parents had to process when we left our traditional religion, and we still understand their feelings, understand what they had to go through, because we know what we would have had to go through if that would have happened in our situation, when we believe so strongly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, which I would say. They believe they were loving him the best that they could, within the boundaries of their beliefs. Correct Right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think they were trying to really help in so many ways. But anyway, I'm not going to get too far off onto it. But in the way they approached it I think they did a lot more damage than they did by helping.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so kind of a statement that I wrote down here is that when beliefs are wielded to regulate somebody else's humanity, this is a hard kind of sentence to grasp, you know. It stops being love and it becomes control, dressed in religious clothing, right? As much as we don't want to look at it that way, it is that way. So you know, you have fear, you have anxiety. Sometimes it's a deeply buried need to fill in control of a world that refuses to fit into a box that's been handed to you. It can be really difficult.

Speaker 2:

On the flip side, my sister's nephew came out as gay quite a few years ago. Same religion, you could say, arguably same background, but they kind of acted the opposite way. They sought to understand, they started going to conferences, they started reading books and they started really trying to get different points of views so that they could understand their child better. And obviously the result is he, he's loved, he's accepted, he's part of the family and they're not trying to change him into anything different, right? Not an easy thing to do all the time, but it's like do you want the?

Speaker 2:

relationship or you don't.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so perception is not just how you see the world, it is the world for you, and I really love the statement perception is either your prison or your portal.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's crazy huh, yes.

Speaker 2:

So here's the thing. A friend of ours, dan Lopez, recently sent us a podcast. It was by Frank Kern and it's called the Magic Question that Makes Everything Easier. What do you think the magic question is that makes everything easier?

Speaker 1:

What do I believe?

Speaker 2:

Now, frank, obviously, if you know Frank Kern, he's coming at this from a business perspective and he was just kind of sitting there thinking and I want to say he was in a meeting or something and he just sat and thought what's the outcome that I want to have from this meeting?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's like maybe I feel like my time is being wasted but if I get the outcome that I came for, that's all I need.

Speaker 2:

So you know, what does it matter? And it got me to thinking, like, how many times do we wake up in the morning, go about our day? We know we have a list to do, we're checking all the boxes, but do we really sit and think what is the outcome that I want from this right?

Speaker 1:

you know and do we even like, as we think about the outcome, understand why do we want the outcome?

Speaker 2:

it's even further, deeper, but at the end of the day, yeah so, as I was thinking about the scenario with this young boy, it's like if maybe the family would have stepped back, like once again, I don't know them but if they would have stepped back and said what is the outcome that I want from this?

Speaker 2:

First of all, I can't control anybody else. It's just not part of life. That's not how life works, Right? So if I can't control my son, the only two outcomes that are possible is relationship with them or no relationship with them, right? Isn't that a magic question that kind of makes everything easier on how you're going to react.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think there's a lot to it.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the things as humans is we love control in every aspect and when we feel out of control, we actually feel like overwhelmed in so many ways. We actually feel like whew, overwhelmed in so many ways. So I think in that scenario I think you know the outcome that they wanted was to change him. Right, right, that's the outcome that they wanted and wanted him to wake up and say I'm not gay. Yeah, that's the outcome they wanted. Now, I think, when they looked at the scenario, like, let's say that that's still what they wanted. If they ruin the relationship right out of the gate by blowing up or doing something, is that still the outcome that they're going to get? You follow what I'm saying.

Speaker 2:

I am following, but at the same time it's like I think you've got to be in touch with something deeper to the fact of like I can't change you. I agree and understand that from the get go Totally, instead of let's keep this relationship in case I can't change you.

Speaker 1:

Right, I totally agree with what you're saying, but I'm just saying hypothetically. If they would have just thought that far forward. Yeah Right, our outcome really is we want to change our son? Okay, by ruining the relationship right out of the gate and by giving out ultimatums, they destroyed every chance of that even thinking about being possible yeah, you know, there's a lot of road that would have to be built.

Speaker 1:

A lot of bridges have to be built at this point sometimes just even if you want a certain outcome, stop and just for a second, and just think for a few days, or even a month or a couple months, and guess what? All of a sudden, things will start to look and you can understand things differently.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so you know like this is one situation in life, but there's so many right. What if someone leaves a religion, has an affair, quits a high paying career to pursue a dream? It can be a big deal, especially to parents.

Speaker 1:

Well, even in a relationship. In a relationship too, all of a sudden, you decide hey, I'm done with what I'm doing in my career. I'm going to reposition myself because I believe in this so much. And then, all of a sudden, every dollar is going out. All of a sudden, your lifestyle has totally changed. Everything changes. That is not always an easy thing. It's not a small thing.

Speaker 2:

About a divorce splits a family, and sometimes it's not even about the relationship of the parents, but it's with the children as well. We've seen situations where relationship between parent and child is devastated because of how the partner-partner relationship worked out or whatever. So these moments aren't just logical changes, they're emotional earthquakes and they challenge the script we've written about how life should go. So again, what is the outcome that I want? And if it's relationship, and if it's connection, and if it's presence, then it really comes down to those older scripts that you have playing need to be burned Like. You really have to start looking at your belief system and saying, okay, what am I missing?

Speaker 1:

here, yeah, and I can. I just take it at. One other thing that I just want to throw in here that just kind of hit me is is that like the way you see life today? I'm going to be really bold here. Isn't the way you're going to see life in five years from now?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, therefore, the script you're even running today on everything that you're running in five years, I believe, is going to be dramatically different. Well, and.

Speaker 2:

I think you can test that by looking at five years past right, like if nothing's changed there's probably a problem.

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm even going further, Like let's just say AI and what it's going to do in five years.

Speaker 1:

So what I'm saying, like even right now, the way you used to order a sandwich and the belief of the customer service that you used to have at McDonald's or any fast food, has totally changed. Yeah, Okay, Now it's done by a computer, a robot. Like all of a sudden, all these beliefs of how things operate, do things, mechanism, how we learn what we do to learn how we run and operate a business it's all changing so dramatically.

Speaker 2:

So fast.

Speaker 1:

And if you're so stuck in, no, it's got to be the old way, and I'm only this, and this is all I believe.

Speaker 2:

And everything needs to stay in place to like fit me.

Speaker 1:

Right Fit me. It's crazy, I'm out of control, right. And so a lot of people are going to feel super out of control when, all of a sudden, somebody walks in and says hey, we don't need you any longer. This awesome computer robot just replaced you. We love you. You're amazing, you're such a hard worker. It's almost like somebody has come out and said hey, I'm gay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Because all of a sudden, everything about you is like now what Nobody's hiring for my position, no one's hiring for what. I spent years in college studying all these kinds of things. What am I going to do? Yeah, you see what I'm saying. Yeah, and be the employer that has to come and do that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right, but how you both handle that will make all the difference in the world. Yeah, anyway, just a side thought. Yeah, it's a good side thought.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so kind of going back a little bit to relationship and um, what outcome you really want. And if it is relationship, if it's not, like you're just trying to exit and get as far away as possible. Yeah, I really love this statement. If you're clinging to control more tightly than you're clinging to the person in front of you, something in you has become more loyal to belief than to love. Whoa Mic drop.

Speaker 1:

Wow, wow, that's awesome Great statement yeah.

Speaker 2:

Okay, kind of what you were just saying about like being in shock about all the things that are coming at us. Yeah, um, so the story you inherited starts to steal your life if you start to believe in belief more than love right.

Speaker 2:

Yep. To take authorship of your story, though, and to start realizing your perception is just. That is not an easy thing to do. Oh, my God, I'm not saying that it is. We've discovered, as we've challenged all the things that you mentioned earlier, that we had a lot of subjective beliefs that weren't necessarily true. Yeah, and it's hard to face that sometimes.

Speaker 1:

Oh my gosh, it's one of the hardest things I've ever gone through. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Confronting your inner stories is not a light decision, because there's literally an inner death that's taking place, and death is not easy, no matter how you look at it Like it's a shedding and it can be painful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I'm just going to say this, when she says death like it's not divorce.

Speaker 2:

No.

Speaker 1:

And I think there's a big difference here, because I just want to make sure we're clear here, because at the end of the day, like when my mom and dad got divorced, right, they're still here. I still have to deal with it, I still do all the things. If they both would have died, it's over Now, maybe not my emotions, my attachments, things like that, but reality is it's over, and when you go through these belief cycles, you can't divorce them.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

They got to be gone. You've got to let them die. Yeah, and that is, wow, different than divorcing them. And that's what I did when I did my tattoo. Is I divorced it? Yeah, and I had to realize that I had divorced it. But when I wanted the other side, it was okay, I can show. But when I killed it was when I got my hand.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Making a final cut.

Speaker 2:

Yes. So I think, just to highlight, your nervous system is going to go into shock. Yeah, you're going to experience anxiety. Right Me, I have had huge walls of resistance that I didn't think would ever be able to break through.

Speaker 2:

That is like a very sure sign that your inner belief system maybe you don't even realize what your belief system is, but if you feel resistance, there's something in there that believes differently than what you're trying to step into. Yeah right, and I have also experienced this. Sometimes it'll feel like a fairy tale you staked your whole identity on has crumbled to ash right in front of you, and the grief that the actual reality brings can be extremely unbearable. It's temporary, but it is very, very painful, I agree, when all those old things die. But that is expansion.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

That is growth and that's becoming in the fullest sense of the word.

Speaker 1:

Can I tell you something, though? I think that we found the more that we've done. It is actually it's kind of fun.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Because it's like-. The other side well the other side. But I even going through it now is way more fun than it used to be going through it, because the conversations are so different. They're they're like it's because we know we're on the same team.

Speaker 2:

We know that we want to get there, yeah, and I would agree that, like, the more we do it, the less of a death it feels like.

Speaker 1:

And it's more of like a reinvention and like where can we go from here? Right, you know? Yeah, is that kind of what you're saying?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I really love the analogy of the seed. So a seed has to go into the ground and it has to be willing to die or cease to be a seed. It has to crack open, develop a root system before it can grow up.

Speaker 1:

right, it has to go down and die before it can grow, it has to go down, then crack open, go down further and go up. And how much energy does that take? A lot.

Speaker 2:

An eagle doesn't learn how to fly without falling first, and we don't become who we're meant to be without shedding who we were told to be. Amen, and especially those of us who are here to play full out in life. We have a life to play full out in. We have to do the same. To live wide awake and to write our own script means we must be willing to let the old versions of ourselves die.

Speaker 1:

And we can grieve them, and we should, and then, just like the seed, we can rise. Amen, and always remember that just because you rose doesn't mean you didn't grab another belief system, doesn't mean you're done growing. You may have to experience another one and another, and I think that's actual how life goes.

Speaker 2:

Once you hit kind of like a stable whatever, you're done growing you may have to experience another, one and another, and I think that's actual how life goes. Yeah, once you hit kind of like a stable whatever, you're gonna keep going yep so good okay, life updates, we done life updates.

Speaker 1:

So life updates for us right now is we. I went team roping, had a great time. It was absolutely a blast and Xander played a concert. I think we talked briefly about that.

Speaker 2:

We did, we talked about that.

Speaker 1:

He's done with school, our events in a week and I think that's pretty much it.

Speaker 2:

We're going on the event. All in, let's go. So that's what we're doing.

Speaker 1:

All right, is there any other? Yeah, kobe, so far. Far is coming home June 3rd, june 3rd, so which will be awesome.

Speaker 2:

Kiddo home.

Speaker 1:

That'll be awesome. Is there any other updates? No, that's it Awesome, all right.

Speaker 2:

Well, this segment brought to you by I Do Epic.

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Bart Miller

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Sunny Miller

Host