We Play Full Out with Bart and Sunny

When Frameworks Fall Away: Leaving Our Religion and Our Journey to Authentic Self-Discovery

• Bart and Sunny Miller • Season 1 • Episode 67

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Ever feel like you're outgrowing the beliefs you once held dear? 🤔 You're not alone! 

Buckle up for a wild ride with Sunny and Bart—two Idaho kids who ditched the rulebook and rewrote their lives! From Bart’s snowy runaway rebellion at age 10 to Sunny’s perfect bubble popping in 2020, this episode dives into their epic journey out of a strict religious world and into uncharted freedom. Expect laughs, aha moments, and their 8-step playbook to navigate leaving old frameworks and unleashing the real you. 

Ready to break free and live loud? Hit play—this one’s a game-changer! 🎧

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to. We Play Full Out with Bart and Sunny Miller. Take it away, Sunny.

Speaker 2:

Thanks, bart. Yeah, you know, every transformation begins with a single decision the decision to step into something greater. Now, for the past few years, we've been obsessed with unlocking human potential. We've witnessed firsthand how the right identity shifts can take a person from struggling to thriving, hesitant to magnetic and overwhelmed to unstoppable.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. We've put so much energy, time study research and I think I've got a master's degree at this.

Speaker 2:

I think so too it's been unbelievable, but much needed. But I would say it hasn't always started this way.

Speaker 1:

That's a fact.

Speaker 2:

So we both grew up in a deeply conservative religion and we're going to dive deep into this day. We really haven't talked about it too publicly before, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Right First time bringing it out publicly, and so I just want to be clear that we're not here to bash on any religions, we're not here to downplay any religions. We feel, like you know, from my standpoint I'm pretty sure, sunny at the same time that religion is needed for some people and the structure of religion is needed for some people, and we're totally cool with that. And I think you have to come to a place in your life to where you're not trying to prove anything or trying to get anybody to validate anything. It's just you got to be you and be you at your highest and playful out.

Speaker 2:

Yes, absolutely. Not really a caveat in here, but maybe a perception of you know, for us, you know, this framework that we're going to talk about is religion, and I think we'll probably talk about this a little later too but it seems to kind of be a rite of passage in life that at some point one of your frameworks is going to fall away. Yeah, either it's going to fall away from you without you wanting it to, or you're just going to wake up and find out that whatever framework you've been living your life in no longer serves you, and so this topic that we're going to discuss really kind of addresses that, and we're going to talk a little bit later how we navigated it. But whether it's, you know, you feel pulled to a completely different career than you anticipated, or maybe you've left a long-term partnership or marriage, or you maybe find yourself or a loved one in a health issue. That's pretty serious. These frameworks are huge parts of our lives, so we've got to kind of learn how to walk away from empowered instead of disempowered, right.

Speaker 1:

So true Yep absolutely.

Speaker 2:

So we both grew up in a very deeply conservative religion, and when I say grew up in it, we've only left five years ago.

Speaker 1:

Correct.

Speaker 2:

So our entire lives, up until that point, we're in this religion, and when we were younger, it was a time before the internet connected the world. Yes, we are that old. Our families didn't have the means to travel beyond our small, ultra-conservative pocket of Idaho, so our entire worldviews were shaped by those around us.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely yeah, as far as I remember, it was Canada.

Speaker 2:

Yep. So the adults in our lives, the scriptures and the overarching leaders of our church were kind of who we look to.

Speaker 1:

Not kind of they were. It was our community, it was the culture, it was everything, and it was very, very awesome.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and really getting down to the community and we've talked about this If you weren't a part of this religion in our community, you were kind of ostracized you were a bit of an outsider, so that was hard for them to navigate as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you know they would try to invite and try to be missionaries obviously and stuff like that and bring them in. But at the same time you know you did not feel a part, because you do have quite a bit of a different view when you're on the outside of it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah Well, and you're constantly doing activities within the community of the church. So if you're not a part of those, you're kind of out too. So the path to a quote unquote worthy life was laid out for us Choose God, be good and follow the rules. And really, once again, because everyone in our community was kind of a part of the church, conformity wasn't really just encouraged, it was expected. We were told what we could and couldn't say like what we could. You know words we could use, what we could or couldn't wear, eat, drink or even pursue as a career. The boundaries of our lives are drawn by religious doctrine, leaving little room for personal exploration or self-discovery.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, now, I know some of you that are listening to this are of this faith, so you're getting, you know, might get your birds up a little bit and that's okay, but as we explain this, when we talk about you know, you were told what you could wear. It was frowned upon if you wore other things, let's just say it that way and there was an expectation of things that you were to do and to follow, and if you didn't, you were rebellious in lots of ways.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yep. So I kind of wanted to dive into your story a little bit here, because yours is different from mine in childhood in the fact that when you were about 10 years old, you made a decision that changed the trajectory of your entire life, which was you ran away from home.

Speaker 1:

I did. I ran away from home and uh, it was pretty dramatic for me and uh, we won't get into a lot of the details here, maybe Sonny did in the in the newsletter, but bottom line was, um, I was at a cop's house and uh, I was sleeping downstairs and to be greeted by my mom and uh, a member of the church was a high profile person in the church, which is the bishop, and basically told that I was no good because I ran away and that I was leaving at this situation and going somewhere, that I had no idea where I was going and I was a rotten child for doing that and being so bold in my actions.

Speaker 2:

And you were to be clear you were going to go live with your dad.

Speaker 1:

Correct.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So this planted, I think, two seeds deep into your psyche. One was a distrust and authority and also a profound feeling of unworthiness.

Speaker 1:

Obviously, tell me what to do, but I think it also scared the shit out of me, to be honest with you, because it was like, oh my gosh, what have I done and why have I done this? And it really put a lot of fear in my decision and a lot of anxiety in me at that time. For sure, For sure.

Speaker 2:

So you went to live with your father, who was also a member of the church.

Speaker 1:

He was a member and I would say, from then on you spent years trying to fit in, striving to be the ideal church member, but you could always kind of see the cracks in the foundation on, because obviously, you know, coming from a mom and dad that were members at that point in time, um, it was like, well, in our church, once you're married in a temple, you're, you know, have a temple marriage. So even though they'd gotten divorced civilly and they weren't at that time totally divorced, I was like, oh my gosh, they're still married. You know, so in my mind it was very confusing as a kid because I like, I'm getting told one thing that they're married, I'm getting told another thing that they're not married or not going to be married. And my dad was going through utter hell because he wanted to save this, which is his celestial marriage. So, to be able to make it the celestial kingdom, he needed that marriage and he wanted to save that because that's the ultimate pinnacle thing that you could lose in the church.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yep. Now, on the other hand, I grew up in kind of what looked like a perfect little family bubble. There were no major traumatic events that disrupted my belief system and my family kind of fit perfectly into what was the ideal structure, right?

Speaker 1:

When you say just didn't disrupt that, you realized it didn't disrupt.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that I realized at the time.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, because Like there was nothing that-. It was like the my belief system is what I'm trying to say, because your belief system was being created around the foundation of the church.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly, and I never experienced life outside the church. My parents were really loving, they were kind. They did financially struggle pretty badly, but I just learned to find happiness beyond the material wealth. So I just decided if I don't have it, I don't need it, I'm going to be happy anyway. And I fully embraced everything I was told and it shaped my desires and goals to fit within this framework.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and the great thing was is that you didn't question and didn't need to question.

Speaker 2:

No, if I had a question, I just went to the scriptures or thought I could find the answers, or were told the answers would come eventually.

Speaker 1:

You know and that's one thing as we go through this, that was a difficult thing is you're taught in the church that if you have a question it's okay, okay, but when you start to really pry and question, it's not okay.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Because then your faith is wavering, this or that or the other You're not, you know. So there's this dual edge sort of yeah, it's totally great question, but then it's like, oh, you're questioning, therefore you must not have a strong enough testimony, you know. So it's like this hard thing. So you kind of learn, especially if you're super indoctrinated, that you don't want to question, because if you question then you're not faithful enough. You're not enough.

Speaker 2:

Well, and I would say, if you're indoctrinated enough, I might have just lost my train of thought, but you don't worry about the questions, because you just know that the answer is going to come eventually.

Speaker 1:

Just have more faith.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. So I prayed daily, read the scriptures religiously and did everything in my power to be the kind of person deemed worthy of salvation. But the problem with that is, in a world where obedience is the highest virtue, there's little room for spiritual or emotional growth or even really maturity. So I followed rather than questioned. I adapted rather than explored. You don't really have to step up and make your own life choices or decisions if you're just being obedient. That's what I'm getting at.

Speaker 1:

Right, because the framework's there.

Speaker 2:

So you really don't like. Yeah, you don't mature. So even my dreams were kind of shaped by this doctrine, like there was a lot of things I aspired to do and be when I was younger, but it wasn't in line with my true calling, which was to be a mother, strong mother within the church. So fast forward to our college years. I was only 18. You were 21, newly returned missionary from a two-year mission in Japan, you still had lingering questions about the church, for sure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But you were doing your best to fit in and to follow the mold.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's why I found you, girl yeah. Like I wanted to find this girl that was going to drag me to heaven, cause I'm telling you. Well, you were kicking and screaming the whole time, though I was not on the path of understanding all this and but you know, you're taught right that if you can find the right person, that is perfect. They will help you get there. And you want to find a beautiful girl that has the strongest testimonial, the testimony you can possibly find? Snatch her up, because that's your ticket.

Speaker 2:

That's so naughty. And boy, I did it. Oh yep, we met in September, we got engaged in October and we were married by February.

Speaker 1:

Let's go.

Speaker 2:

That's five months, if anybody's counting. It was fast. It was so fast. That was 30 years ago, and we continued to build our lives the way we were taught marrying in the church, following his principles, raising our four children Well, really three according to his guidelines. But with our contrasting backgrounds, friction was inevitable. You had a tendency to question things, while I had a tendency to fully believe, and so we kind of hit heads there a little here and there, because you felt I was really giving my whole life away and I'm like why aren't you?

Speaker 1:

Right, yeah, most definitely, and it's so many different categories and I was one that's like just relax, and she was like I'm relaxed, but we're doing the right thing we got it all in, that's right yeah, so that was how Sunny played. Full out was by following that honestly which was great.

Speaker 2:

So for 25 years, we wrestled with this dynamic off and on, and then, in 2020, everything changed and, ironically, it was kind of me who was the catalyst. At the time, I was not looking even remotely to leave the church, not even a tiny bit. In fact, I felt like I was stronger than I'd been in a long time, but there were these little breadcrumbs that started appearing before me, and I followed them, and it led me to a moment of profound cognitive dissonance. That is when deeply held beliefs collide violently with undeniable truth. When deeply held beliefs collide violently with undeniable truth. So, for the first time, I could see the invisible walls that had shaped my entire existence, the ones that you could already see here and there, and once I saw them, I couldn't unsee them.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, and that was, I think, a really scary moment for both of us, to be honest, for sure. Because at that point it was like, oh geez, now what? And I remember really thinking at that time I'm like man, this could destroy everything. Because that's when you realize that if we leave, if we do this, if we do that, right, if any of it's true.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Then what just happened to all the things, our celestial marriage, all the things we believed, literally. So to do this is like really challenging every aspect of your life. Because in the church you're taught, now you're damned. Yeah, because you're going to lose all the yeah, because you're gonna, you're gonna lose all the covenants, everything you've done, all the stuff.

Speaker 2:

So literally you're going to hell and, uh, that's it yeah, and again, like if a framework maybe for yours is leaving a career or leaving a partnership or any of those things, that's still kind of the same boat of like what now? Where do I go? What's going to happen to me? There's a lot of fear around it. I guess what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 1:

For sure.

Speaker 2:

So when we both awakened to the realization that our lives had been dictated by external forces, not by our own choices, we kind of looked at each other. Well, there's a process, and we're going to talk about that, but we did become relentless in our pursuit of freedom, yep, and we committed to living fully together, playing full out and reclaiming the energy, passion and aliveness that had been dormant inside us for decades, although it was a little slower for me than it was for you, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And I think most things are oh yeah yeah, and I think most things are oh yeah. So that framework falling away set us on a path we never really expected, one that would challenge everything we thought we knew and force us to redefine success, freedom, purpose, really our whole lives.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I just want to caution anybody that this does decide that they're going to make a dramatic change like this Sometimes you can go and jump off the deep end pretty quick. Yeah, make some of these decisions. And when I say that, not not actually leaving, but, you know, having all that freedom and things you've never been able to do, and all these things, you can just go run out and become crazy pants in five seconds.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I'm saying just dip your toes in the water, test a few things, take some time, you know. Really, think about what you're doing and what it what?

Speaker 2:

it does, you know, really think about what you're doing and what it does, because your psyche still believes so much in what you just came from that you can fall away, and I feel like a lot of people out there like if they're struggling with this or with any other framework. It can be very hard to navigate.

Speaker 1:

Well, it can also be very hard to make a choice and see some of the patterns. And let's be clear, one of the things I want to get across here is cults are real, yeah, and your mind to define the things that you believe in you will make yourself believe anything you want to. And I know people are like well, I'm just telling you you have to really go back to the real structure and really really do your homework, because cults are a real thing and escaping a cult can be more difficult than you realize, and that you're even trapped in one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, for sure. Okay, we're going to talk about just some steps or like the processor method. I feel like it's really one that we went through to get us where we are.

Speaker 1:

Let's do it.

Speaker 2:

So the first one for me specifically maybe more than you I want to say is I went through a pretty intense grief cycle.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And more so because my identity was this church, where it was part of you but it wasn't your identity.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I was one foot in, one foot out, doing different things, stuff like that. And my mother wasn't a member, not, she had left the church, so my siblings and stuff like that weren't as heavily involved in the church. So I'd seen another side. Plus, I'd seen I'd went to Japan on my mission. I'd seen a lot of different things where you hadn't it was 100%. This is it. This is the only thing, this is the only way.

Speaker 2:

So, yes, so you kind of have to acknowledge that it's a loss for you. And I went through anger, hurt, betrayal, confusion, sadness I hit them all. You bet no-transcript and to just believe so. This took some time to sit with and work through and heal, and I wouldn't say that sometimes things still pop up here and there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

They do, and it's not really a process that can be rushed. It's one to be patient with. It's a loss, and loss is painful, right. So step two would be to reframe the past. So there are many really good people we know that have left the church, but it seems like when we get together it's kind of good old church bashing time. Like that's kind of how they want to express things and we're not. We understand it, but we're really not about it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we just moved on and said you know what? That's our past and we're going to leave it there, and you know, no longer are we this, and so let's go. Let's just go do the things we want to do and enjoy life.

Speaker 2:

And like I think you said this earlier but we do recognize the good as well as the bad in all things and we understand that everybody's on their own path and we honor them, yep, and you know we feel like we need to do that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you know we feel like we need to do that, yeah, and another thing that we had going for us was just so we're clear here is is that we we had a support mechanism between the two of us, and I'm sure we're getting there. So that's awesome, you know, and sometimes you need to find a support system around yourself and a tribe around yourself, because it's a big step.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's actually step number three, our next step, and I did mention that we feel like we were really lucky because we were on the same page. I know some people aren't and it's a rough road to go down.

Speaker 1:

It most definitely is.

Speaker 2:

So finding a good support system, that's also a positive support system. One more thing on reframing the past is just reframing the past is all about just shifting your narrative from victimhood to one of strength and empowerment. So, like, what did this do for us?

Speaker 1:

that was good, that got us to where we are today.

Speaker 2:

Okay. So then step three is the seeking support. Step four would be to explore your core values. You get to take a deep dive into self-discovery. This was a big one for me, because I'm like whoa, if I don't believe this true, then what is true? And I will be the first to say. I went down so many rabbit holes that it was ridiculous. But I was just so relentless because, like, my identity had been built on knowing the truth, and when I didn't, I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, that's normal, right, I mean, that's just totally normal. So I was super proud of you and there was times that it was frustrating, because I really felt like you know, gosh, she's trying to find another religion today, or she's trying to find you know, when she just got free, just take some deep breaths and be free for a minute, you know. But at the same time, I wanted to support that too, because I understood that, you know, structure is important in so many ways and you just lost all your structure, and what I mean didn't mean you couldn't keep some of the values and things or whatever it might be, but the overall core structure of what you believed your salvation was was gone.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yep, so you can just take a deep dive. What do you believe? Who are you? What values do you feel are important or not? And this can be tricky, because sometimes programming teaches us what's valuable, and so we don't know the difference between what's been indoctrinated into us or what actually is valuable to us.

Speaker 2:

So it's a lot of self-reflection, some journaling, really, some some deep thinking and even talking it out. Don't be afraid, though, to jump into all kinds of new thoughts and ideas. It can be a really fun time to sift through new perspectives and beliefs that you probably hadn't ever considered before, and there are so many really cool things out there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so explore.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It doesn't mean you have to participate. Yeah, but go explore, talk about things, look at different things, look up things, get to the bottom line of them. Don't just sit there, but go explore, ask questions, have conversations you've never had before.

Speaker 2:

Be open in your conversations and just say what if Yep, and kind of along those same lines is step five, which is experiment and explore. Kind of along those same lines is step five, which is experiment and explore, so you can start to engage in new activities and or spiritual practices that align with your newly discovered values and interests. And actually just doing fun new activities is fun also.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, and this is really a time you do get to experiment and explore who you really are. Yeah, now, when we first left the church, I was just keeping on like I always did, and I was totally fine with that. And then you came to me and you're like Sonny, you're like the exact same person outside the church that you were in the church.

Speaker 1:

And I was like well.

Speaker 2:

I like that person, I don't have a problem with that. But then when I really sat and thought about it, I was like, whoa, I'm not doing anything new, I'm not stepping up, I'm not trying things, I'm not like seeing what I'm actually all about. And so, yeah, step into new things.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, like I mean, for example, static dancing, you know, go try it and just be crazy and let your body and find out what your body was really created for. And, you know, have some fun. Go do yoga and really get into the spiritual end of yoga. Yeah, you know, understand why Buddha walked, why Buddha did what he did. You know, like, go have some fun and explore some different concepts, ideas, and just be wide open to listen, but don't once again, you don't need to anchor another belief just because you fill a void and fill it full of something else. You just go get a lot of information, enjoy yourself and then start to decide what feels good to you.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. Then step six is reconstruct your identity, and this can be really fun, and, in fact, we recommend doing this whenever you feel like it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so good.

Speaker 2:

I think we all get so caught up in. This is just my personality or this is my identity, but how about you get to choose whenever you want to shake things up? Yeah life is meant to be lived amen and out loud so do have fun. Play full out, if you wake up one day and decide you want to be an artist. Go be an artist.

Speaker 1:

Right, totally, go paint, go do something. You know, yeah, there's so many fun things that are out there and you know, even if you are in a traditional religion, I would still do this.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Like challenge things, go do other things, like even in your religion, like go explore the deeper concepts of stuff, things like that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Yep. Step seven is empowerment through action. So actively live out who you want to be. Make deliberate choices to reflect what you feel like your true self is.

Speaker 1:

So, good.

Speaker 2:

And then step eight is to reflect and adjust. So maintain a cycle of reflection and adjustment so you continually grow and adapt as new circumstances or new insights arise, kind of like what you just said. You don't have to anchor to anything, but if you decide what your values are and you're going down these different paths and you're taking action, I would just say flow and allow versus being rigid and stuck in thought patterns or belief systems. Yeah, like, really challenge yourself to think expansively instead of constrictively as you go through life.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and you're going to bounce up against old beliefs, you're going to bounce up against all sorts of things. Just realize that and be okay with it.

Speaker 2:

Yep, okay. So just kind of wrapping up, stepping out of old frameworks, whether unintentionally or intentionally, can feel like finally taking off shoes that never quite fit. If you're feeling hemmed in by old beliefs or outdated structures, or some of these other frameworks that we briefly discussed have been taken away or fallen away from you, why not explore what happens next? The most profound transformations start when you have the courage to leave behind what no longer serves you. Are you ready to step out and see what you're truly capable of?

Speaker 1:

So good, I love all that.

Speaker 2:

Anything else you want to add?

Speaker 1:

No, just like I said, I think once again, take some time, find a support group, be conscious of what you're doing, understand that you're going to get a lot of pressure and you're going to feel a lot of pressure, even if you don't get it.

Speaker 2:

And really, I mean I didn't, we didn't really highlight this, but even within, like you and I, we're challenging each other's beliefs on so many different levels. I would say that there were some really tough conversations, really hard communication, frameworks within frameworks within frameworks falling away from the main one coming down. So I'm not saying it's an easy process, but I would say that we are more transparent, we're fully awake, we're fully conscious and we're fully intentional now as a partnership, where before we weren't.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, there's just things we couldn't talk about or things we just had to leave on the shelf because some of it had to be on the shelf because it didn't fit. Exactly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So, um, yeah, not saying it's easy, but we're saying it's worth it. It's worth it for sure.

Speaker 1:

Well, well worth it.

Speaker 2:

Yep, so nothing else to add, right, nope, okay. Well then let's go to some life updates.

Speaker 1:

Life updates. Well, I went down with Sunny to Pocatello. We got some IVs and started exploring a new program that we're putting together with some other bright minded individuals and laid it out and did a framework, which was absolutely awesome. I think Xander and Sonny had a lesson. Yep, I've played some pickleball and let's see what else. Life updates. I think that's pretty much it that I can think about the thought in my head. You have some others.

Speaker 2:

Well, Xander got to participate in another jazz festival.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's right yeah.

Speaker 2:

It was a regional festival that was hosted at his private saxophone teacher school and his band got a superior rating, which is awesome.

Speaker 1:

So good.

Speaker 2:

We're going to go to Boise, yep On the 22nd through the 24th for a workshop on an organic lead system. That's supposed to be really epic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, pretty excited about that, so stay tuned on what we learned from that.

Speaker 2:

Um, we just announced a new name change oh, that's right for your instagram ph. That's right, bard and sunny miller bard is bringing me into the mix.

Speaker 1:

Let's go watch out everybody, yeah pretty excited about that and, uh, it just goes along with the we play full Out and all the things that we're developing for couples, for humans, because we just know that you have the choice to architect your life by design and not have a framework design it for you, and so we really want to lay that framework out that we've been working on over the years. Bring that framework to others, because we know a lot of people out there that are struggling with suicide. They're struggling with all these things and it comes back to the framework not understanding how they're architecting their life by design and they're feeling so much outside pressure for so many things. And if you are struggling with your traditional religion and you need somebody to talk to, you need to find some somewhere to go, to learn, to explore with. Always, reach out, sunny, and I want to be open, we want to be there for people and, yeah, so we're excited about that.

Speaker 2:

Yes, we're exciting. I think that is all I've got right now.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. Well, you guys, we appreciate you listening to this. Like we say, please, please, please, share this if it would help anybody else, and we're so grateful for you as the listener. We can't thank you enough for taking time out of your day to listen to Sonny and I. Go back and forth on the things that we're exploring, what we're doing, and we would love to work with you in the future. So if there's any way you want to work with us, let us know that. And this segment brought to you by I Do Epic.

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Bart Miller

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Sunny Miller

Host